I see a lot of Doctor Who Feminist fans (who I love, and am one of, btw) disagreeing with Eleven’s ‘manipulation’ of Amy at the end of ‘Angels Take Manhattan’, but this is one of those things that I don’t get (from a Feminist perspective, at least). I had a lot more…
Oh, I can absolutely see that there’s a lot of sexism in Moffat’s era, and I completely agree that the mystical pregnancy, forced kissing, the abusive Doctor/River relationship, ect, are all completely unacceptable, and should never have been allowed on a family show at all, IMO.
It’s just that, even though Eleven was selfish in that scene (I’d argue that selfishness is a huge part of his character, though), Amy also resists his efforts to keep her with him. Plus, the Dimension Cannon was an example of Rose being incredibly selfish, and arguably an example of RTD unjustly glorifying Rose even more so than Moffat does the Doctor, since Rose gets her happy ending and is never punished by the narrative for her mistakes.
Plus, I see a lot of people criticizing Moffat’s female characters for lacking agency but not RTDs. Not counting the times when Moffat’s female characters had their agency taken away from them like with Amy’s pregnancy (which I agree was unacceptable), I don’t see much difference. People praise Rose for Bad Wolf, but say that Clara was passive in entering the time stream, but Rose just got power from the TARDIS and didn’t remember it afterwards, while Clara knew what she was doing when entering the time stream and each of her echoes had to actively take the Doctor back from under the Great Intelligence’s control. That’s just the first example that came to mind.
I also completely agree with you that Moffat’s era is hugely lacking in non-Doctor centered interactions. It would have been great to have seen more of Amy’s family, and I’m always hopeful that we’ll get some significant appearances from Clara’s family before her time is up (although, I think it’s unlikely).
Thanks for such a great reply! =)
I know I’ve seen long debates about whether or not Rose is being selfish in using the Dimension Cannon, and I’m not going to venture into that because it’s been a long time since I watched those episodes.
The reason I see Rose -> Bad Wolf as more active than Clara entering the timestream is because of the whole sequence that leads up to her opening the Tardis. We get to see her lovely epiphany about what she’s learned from traveling with the Doctor, and why that means she can’t just sit back and let him die. All on her own, she realizes what Bad Wolf means and figures out a possible way to get back to the Doctor. She convinces Mickey and Jackie to help. She is able to succeed because of her life outside of traveling with the Doctor, because she’s connected to her family and community. (The fact that she doesn’t remember after she’s done it, and the Doctor doesn’t tell her about it, if one of my pet peeves in Series 1.)
I see Clara as more passive because, although stepping into the timestream is a brave thing to do, it’s also a simple, obvious thing to do. It’s right there in front of her. And it’s kind of inevitable; she has to do it because she’s already done it, because she was “born to save the Doctor.” To Moffat, Clara’s whole existence is wrapped up in the Doctor. Does that make sense?
It just occurred to me that it would have been great it we could have seen Clara actually solving puzzles and doing tasks in order to save the Doctor in his different incarnations. That could have been a framework for the 50th: bring back previous Doctors (with some kind of hand-waving explanation of why they look older), put them in perilous situations and have Clara save them.
It also occurs to me, in writing this, that a feminist story doesn’t have to contain empowered women who make good choices and triumph in the end. There just have to be some parts of the story that are about women, that put them in the spotlight and honor their points of view. Do you watch Orange is the New Black? The female characters are in one of the most powerless positions there is (they’re in prison) and they make bad choices and do shitty things to one another, but it’s a story about the women themselves, not just about how they reflect on the male characters. My problem with Moffat’s Who (or one of them) is that his female characters (and his secondary male characters, for that matter) are never at the center of their own stories.
Okay just wanted to add about the dimension cannon, that it is no way selfish for Rose to have used it for a couple of reasons… One it didn’t work before the Stars went out, I mean people just ignore that scene. So no Rose is not the reason the “Stars were going out” It was Davros… I mean seriously what’s not to get about that, Davros build a reality bomb and was hell bent on destroying the mult-verse and since Rose’s Universe ran ahead of the Doctor’s they were able to see it earlier. Now we don’t know when the cannon was created but what we do know is it acted similarly to what Pete had in Doomsday… mean Rose probably didn’t even have to create a department in there Torchwood to research it they probably already were. Also what is selfish about Rose wanting to get back to the Doctor… I just don’t get how it’s a selfish act to be with someone you love, people talk all the time about how “Oh she’ll leave her mum” but Mickey, who is essentially like Jackie adoptive son, leaves her in Journey’s End and nobody bitches about him doing that. Jackie had, Pete, and Tony in that new world and wanted to stay, Rose didn’t have the one thing she loved most in that universe so she wanted to leave.
Also I wouldn’t say Rose get’s a happy ending, sure it’s nice she gets to have one forever, with one Doctor. But honestly that’s the most fucked up thing to do to person, to have the person there in love with be split in two and told to choose between the two, but to be told that one is human and one is a practically immortal Time Lord and that you’ll be forever separated from one of them, and never know if there happy, or if they’ve found someone else, or if there dead or alive…. I love Tentoo with all my heart but I would not call the Journey’s End a “Happy Ending” for Rose…It’s a bittersweet ending, she get’s the Doctor, but not fully and the Doctor never gets her…
I never said Rose was the reason that the stars were going out - it’s the fact that she was so obviously planning to use it despite the danger that it posed which makes her selfish. It was never said that Mickey was like Jackie’s adopted son - he went to the parallel world to be with his grandmother.
The way that the Doctor treated Rose in Journey’s End is like she’s some sort of babysitter for his new ‘supposedly’ dangerous self, which is something that I didn’t like Ten for doing at all. However it really does feel like it was set up to give Rose a happy ending - she ended up with both parents, her own ‘version’ of the Doctor, and she’s rich. Even though I can totally see it being seen as a slightly sad ending for Rose, I wouldn’t call it ‘bittersweet’. I would consider Amy’s ending to be bittersweet - she said herself that she lived a happy life with Rory, but she actually was stuck in another time, unable to see her friends or any of her family again, and unable to see her best friend again. Rose didn’t get the ‘specific’ version of the Doctor that she wanted (and she probably would have gotten him too if the Doctor couldn’t outlive her!), but she got just about everything else.
First off, I’m talking about Mickey leaving in Journey’s End, he walks right up to Jackie and say he’ll miss her the most. It’s clear the two have become extremely bonded. And yet nobody cares that Mickey goes off to build a life back in his home Universe, hmmm I smell sexism there a man can leave someone but if woman does she’s a horrible person.
And how the fuck was the dimension cannon dangerous, it wasn’t it. It didn’t work until the stars started to go out, and that meant the walls between universes were weakened and travel between them was possible again. Also the stars were going out in her universe and the other ones she traveled too Rose knew something bad was going on and she also knew that the Doctor could fix this mess so yea she goes to find him, she and when she arrived in the correct one the Doctor is dead, and if wasn’t for Rose helping Donna correct her mistake, the Doctor would still be dead and the universe would be gone.
Secondly Amy’s ending is hardly sad, honestly the Doctor could land in New Jersey and pick them up if he wanted too or River could go back with her vortex manipulator and pick them up, that whole episode is littered with plothole’s. Moffat never explains why those can’t happen during the episode, only that if was written in book, but the fall of Gallifrey was written down in a book as well and he could completely ignore that and rewrites that history. Moffat’s response to this criticism has been more or less “Cause I said so”. Also Eleven tries to emotionally manipulate Amy before her traveling back, telling her things like “I’ll never see you again” compare that to Ten who willing sent Rose into a parallel universe and Nine who sent Rose back home from Gamestation. And they both did so without shedding a tear. That’s real love sorry, real love is putting some else before selfish needs. Granted the Doctor did not ask Rose or give her a choice, but that’s clearly seen as wrong in the narrative as each time Rose comes back for the Doctor and doesn’t let him make that choice for her and in Doomsday she give him the whole “I made my choice a long time ago and I’m never going to leave you speech”, meaning she won’t put up with him making those kinda choices for her even if they are under the best intentions.
Also on the surface Rose’s life could seem good yea but if you’re actually paying attention you’ll realize it’s bittersweet. She has her mum, great, she has a little brother now great. But Pete rejected her twice, once in Age of Steel and second in Doomsday, it’s clear in Doomsday Pete didn’t want Rose he just wanted Jackie. I’m sorry but I think that relationship is going to be need of constant work, Pete doesn’t view Rose as a daughter, and that hurts Rose since she’s always wanted her Father back. We don’t know how that relationship worked out, but it’s clear he only took Rose along cause he wanted Jackie back.
Also Rose too was taken from her friends and family, Jackie mentions at the end of the WWIII episodes that Rose has a grandmother still alive, a cousin named Moe, an assumingly an aunt. Also she has a friend named Shareen (Mentioned in End of the World), and Keisha who is in a book about Ten and Rose. Also Rose losing her best friend Mickey in Journey’s End in case you’ve forgotten. Also name me these so called “Friends” of Amy and Rory’s please, they go unmentioned, besides Melody who for some best friend whom one would name there daughter after she isn’t mentioned till Let’s Kill Hitler years after Amy started traveling with the Doctor, I didn’t even know Amy’s parent’s name till I looked it up on Wikipedia, and Rory has his dad in for one episode, but that’s it, it’s never mentioned if he knows what happened to his son, if the Doctor ever went to tell him… nothing. Also there’s Amy’s Aunt, but she’s never mentioned or even seen on camera, and if she was it was so unmemorable that I can’t remember it.
Finally you’re acting as if Ten just gave Tentoo way, like he didn’t have any say in it. Tentoo wanted to spend the rest of his life with Rose, he told her “I have only one heart…. I have one life I could spend it with you, if you want?” He offered her the chance to spend and build a life together. The Tenth Doctor was completely and utterly in love with Rose Tyler and that’s fact but he also knows he’s hurt her on several occasions and can’t be with her the way he longs too, but here’s himself with a human life so what does he do, he steps back and lets her happiness come before his own selfish needs. Because that’s what love is. Once again that’s probably the hardest choice to ever put someone through, imagine having to choose between a person you love, one version is human just like you and the other is an immortal time lord… it’s heart wrenching to watch that.
Rose didn’t get the ‘specific’ version of the Doctor that she wanted (and she probably would have gotten him too if the Doctor couldn’t outlive her!), but she got just about everything else.
Okay this annoys me more then I can tell you. Cause you’re acting like Rose just took the Doctor, did it ever occur to you that Doctor might want a life with Rose Tyler, that if he had a choice *Cough* Tentoo *Cough* he would choose to be with her. That if he could have had his forever with her he would have jumped at the chance. I mean the Doctor was in love with her, what’s so wrong about being with someone you love.
Missing her the most does not equal adopted son. Plus, I never said I had any problem with Rose leaving her mother.
The Doctor himself said in Doomsday that he and Rose can never meet again because of the damage that it could do to the universe. Disagreeing with her attempts to get back isn’t about trying to take her autonomy, it’s about Rose’s obsession with a man who has made clear that she can never be with him, and her blatant disregard for the well-being of the universe (eg, in Doomsday, when the Doctor explains why he can’t come through to her, she replies “So?”).
The way that Amy’s ending was presented and intended to be seen by the audience, was that she could never see the Doctor again. It is a plot hole that he couldn’t when there are so many ways around it, but DW is littered with plot holes. It doesn’t change the way that Amy’s ending should be interpreted. Amy is shown to have friends in The Power of Three, and Rory has a career which he’s shown to enjoy and be invested in. Brian obviously had a good relationship with his son and daughter-in-law, as seen in both Dinosaurs on a Spaceship and The Power of Three. Not to mention, losing their daughter. My point was that Rose ended up with most of the people that she was shown on-screen to love, while Amy and Rory only had each other. I did mention Rose’s friend who she brings up in early episodes. Rose and Mickey didn’t exactly have the best relationship - she treated him very badly.
I’m not saying that TenTwo didn’t want to be with Rose - I’m just saying that the way the Doctor told Rose about him was like she had to stay and ‘fix’ him, which just opens up another can of worms, since it adds to that whole mentality that you have a responsibility to be with people for their sake alone. And, no, I’m not saying that Rose didn’t want to be with him, or that TenTwo is in any way an abuser, I’m just saying that the ‘abusive boyfriend’ analogy is there.
I’d also argue that the Doctor was forced to ‘step back’ - he could never be with Rose, he said so himself. There’s nothing wrong with being with someone you love - it’s really great in fact, eg. Amy and Rory - but the Doctor obviously couldn’t be with Rose. And yes, I agree that the Doctor loved Rose, but he has loved before her and he does go on to love again after her.
Thanks for your reply =).
Okay Mickey and Jackie are seen to have a close bond, Mickey said his grandmother, lived in a mansion the rest of her days, implying he lived with Jackie and Pete… I mean she’s known Mickey since he was a child (See the episode Father’s Day) and would you open your home to people who didn’t consider family.
Also Rose obessed with the Doctor… compared to River who claimed her pain was more important the entire universe please, there’s obsession, and there’s wanting be someone you love. Okay Rose checked to make sure there was no other way, how many times did the Doctor tell her something was impossible but it wasn’t. Secondly the dimension cannon didn’t work prior to walls of the universe breaking down, Rose says this, which means at some point she stopped working on it if she admitted it didn’t work… Jesus how difficult is that for people to understand.
Okay Amy ending being able to be fixed by me an audience does make it less sad, I’m sorry if I can fix the ending so simple by having River go back in time with her vortex manipulator it makes the ending cheap, like really Amy was important, I loved Amy and she got that cheap plot hold ridden ending.
Losing there daughter, yea horrible, if we got shown there pain. Amy’s just A okay with the Doctor not finding Melody, she rages against him, never blames him losing her daughter and having her be abused and turned out to be a woman who calls herself a “Psychopath” River calls herself that. I know somebody who’s lost two children, two baby girls and trust me I’ve seen that pain and DW did nothing to show the reality of what’s like to loose a child. In fact Amy’s worth goes down as a person b/c children, she feels she must divorce Rory b/c her only value is uterus obviously cause after series 5 that’s all Amy is worth, is her ability to produce children.
You’re gonna tell me that only Rose was mean to Mickey, he didn’t show he was uncaring boyfriend by wanting to go to the pub after her shop got blown up, in which Rose could have died, and watch a football game rather then comfort his girlfriend who had just gone through a near death experience (Episode Rose) or how about the time he commented on her weight and basically told her she was fat (Episode School Reuinon) or how about the fact he cheated her and started a new relationship with another girl, didn’t tell until it was clear she wouldn’t have sex with him that night, I mean he started a relationship with another girl yet was perfectly okay with getting a hotel and having sex with Rose. (Episode Boomtown)
And I’m not saying Rose was perfect in there relationship, cause she was no saint, but the fact is they both were wrong many different occasions. They were young and a bad fit, Rose wanted more out of life and Mickey wasn’t ready for that yet… it’s relationships work sometimes. But Mickey was no saint either.
Also were you really so stupid that you didn’t understand that the Doctor was lying in Jounrey’s End… I mean he literally was saying those things so Rose would let him do what he was gonna do…You’re really surface person aren’t you. Tentoo didn’t need fixing that’s the point, Tentoo if you watch him carefully is more happy then Ten is, he’s much more like Ten was in season two, when he was at his happiest. Ten was giving Rose every reason to want to stay with him, until one of them sticked, was he taking away her choices, yes, is Tentoo abusive NO…
If you’re talking about Eleven and River, you should really look up the post that has them meet I think 10 or so criterias for abusive relationship. You really want to talk about an abusive relationship you need to look no further then the Doctor and River… He says awful to her like “I don’t want to marry you” marries her basically to shut her up, keeps her in a prison (For a crime she didn’t commit) and only break her out for dates (Aka have sex with her), forces her to break her wrist in the Angels take Manhattan, and don’t tell me it was written in book so they “Had” too. Or he “Healed” her afterwards so that makes it okay, much like how after giving you bloody lip an abusive boyfriend buys you flowers.. Okay I’ve seen abusive relationships, and been in manipulative ones and trust me the Doctor and River a class A abusive relationship.
Don’t give me that shit that somehow Tentoo is somehow an abusive relationship because you can’t dig deeper into the narrative then surface level and somehow tell me the Doctor “Loved” River cause that abusive train wrench wasn’t love.
Firstly, there is no need to insult me. We’re discussing a TV show; it’s not the end of the world if we disagree, and it’s not worth actually getting upset over.
I don’t see how Mickey and Jackie’s relationship has anything to do with this discussion. I don’t see any point where Mickey is considered a son to Jackie, and I don’t see what it’s got to do with anything. Plus, I live with people, but I don’t consider them my children… not all the time, anyway =D.
I never compared Rose to River. One relationship being more dysfunctional than another doesn’t mean that the lesser one is healthy. Rose was - to a certain extent - obsessive over the Doctor, and he didn’t help matters by letting their relationship continue going down the romantic road, and he should have been the more responsible one. I don’t only blame Rose.
I was referring to the fact that Amy and Rory lost River too when they went back in time. Also, whether it changes how you feel or not, a plot hole doesn’t change how a scene is supposed to be interpreted. We are told that the Doctor cannot retrieve Amy and Rory, and so we as the audience must accept that in order to get the best out of the story. It doesn’t make plot holes acceptable - they are lazy and they shouldn’t be there - but it also doesn’t give the audience the right to dismiss the intention of a scene.
I agree that Eleven and River’s relationship was hugely problematic, but it doesn’t change the fact that the Doctor has got love interests outside of Rose. I’m sure I’m missing a lot of details, since I haven’t watched the Classic Series, but just from the Revival, we know that he has had relationships, as well as children. Post-Rose, he falls in love with River (regardless of how problematic the relationship is, the narrative tells us that they are in love, and the writer is right, even if it’s badly written), and has a romantically-charged relationship with Clara soon after. The Doctor has to always move on, and Rose doesn’t change that, as he told her directly in School Reunion.
Mickey did make some remarks here and there which are not particularly nice, but Rose’s treatment of him was on another level. She leaves for a year, leaves again, gets annoyed when he starts dating someone else, doesn’t want him travelling in the TARDIS, and when he leaves to stay with his parallel grandmother, all she can think of is herself.
Nope, I’m not a ‘surface person’ at all.The Doctor thought his copy needed ‘fixed’ after he destroyed the Daleks; the two events lap into one another.
Thanks for replying =).
Okay first of all you’re confusing a romantic relationship with obsession, and that’s very unhealthy to do. Rose has a life outside of the Doctor, she goes home to her family several times, she talks about her friends, she does things on her own all the time, look at the episodes Idiot’s lantern, Impossible Planet, Satan Pit, Rise of the Cybermen, and Age of Steel. Oh yea in Rise of the Cybermen she leaves the Doctor when he’s trying to keep her away from seeing parents whom she could potential leave him for, if you didn’t see in that episode that Ten was extremely worried Rose would leave him you are a surface person only. Secondly did you watch any of Ninth Doctor, he was jealous of any male who came into connect with Rose…. That’s called a relationship, it’s not obsession by any means. You’re twisting there relationship into being what you want it too be. Female characters are allowed to have romantic relationships, that’s make doesn’t make them obsessed with someone, Rose never shows the signs of someone who is obsessed, and idk what you’re trying to say here “and he didn’t help matters by letting their relationship continue going down the romantic road, and he should have been the more responsible one. I don’t only blame Rose.” the thing is the Doctor wanted to go down a romantic road with Rose, he was in love with her, he didn’t give the idea he wasn’t because was….
Okay on the subject of Mickey, Rose didn’t leave for a year, Rose left for two days, and fully intended to be back the day after she left. The Doctor is the reason it was a year, he miscalculated… also Rose apologizes again and again, to both Jackie and Mickey but guess who never did…. The Doctor does he ever get blamed for Rose messing a year no suprisingly it’s only Rose’s fault according to you…. hmmm once again smell sexism litter in your posts. No Mickey doesn’t just start dating someone else, he doesn’t in Cardiff and say he’s seeing some else, he first tells her he’s gotten a hotel room and invites Rose too it’s clear that Mickey wants to have sex with her, making her believe that there relationship is still going on. Then when Mickey realizes there’s gonna be no sex that night he tells her he’s seeing someone else. Mickey was willing to cheat on both girls. He’s not a fucking saint he did just as bad as Rose. She invited him to go the Tardis, and so did the Doctor, he wasn’t ready yet and he made the Doctor tell Rose that he wasn’t allowed. It’s not Rose fault they grew apart what was she suppose to do remain unhappy her entire life because that’s what society tells her do, she wanted to go explore the Universe and Mickey didn’t it doesn’t make her a bad person nor the only one who hurt the other in the relationship.
I never said the Doctor never could love again after Rose, I think I’ve been pretty clear on that, I don’t think I’ve given you any reason to believe he couldn’t. Cause I’m also a shipper of Charley and the Doctor (Eighth Doctor book series). The point I’m making is abusive relationship aren’t love, there’s no love there, abuser don’t love victims. Eleven doesn’t know doesn’t no how to love.
But even so on the issue of the Doctor just moving on, I think you’re making it a lot more callous and cold then it actually was. Ten spent most a season 3 mourning her, in the Human Nature Episodes when the Doctor became a human, he had dreams of his life as the Doctor, he couldn’t put names to anything, not even the Tardis but he could name Rose, and he did dream her and drew her. Yes the Doctor could move on, he’s proved it but Rose was very special too him. And don’t compare the River and Clara thing to Rose, cause Moffat has proven he has no ability to write good romantic relationships. Either way Ten doesn’t jump into a romantic relationship with Martha or Donna, Ten really doesn’t really ever start a true romantic relationship after Rose leaves.
On the Amy and Rory situation, for me at least, I guess it didn’t happen to you, but for me and a bunch of others the plot hole ridden ending made it cheap. And No just because the narrative tells you something doesn’t make it good or true, the narrative should show you, were told the Doctor in love with Rose but were shown it, there’s a rule in writing “Show don’t tell” it’s a major rule which Moffat constantly breaks and that makes his storyline and his character cheap.
Also you are a surface person if you can understand that The Master committed multiple genocides and the Doctor forgives him, Rose comittes genocide against Daleks, Davros committees genocides and he offers to save him, in Journey’s End, and the Doctor has already committed genocides. If you can’t see he said Tentoo, who was giddy and happy and David Tennant said he played him too be much more happier then Ten, was those things to get Rose to stay without breaking her heart, cause that’s what he does in the “Does it need saying” Scene is he breaks her heart and his hearts and the Doctor didn’t want to that. If you can’t read into the narrative it make you a bad reader and bad at understanding characters, and why do things, and it’s means your paying attention to the show.